Podcast: Apologetics Across Political Divides with Andy Bannister

In this episode of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast, hosts Graham Nicholls and Lizzie Harewood sit down with Andy Bannister, Director of Solas Centre for Public Christianity, to talk about:

• the origins of Solas;
• a working definition of Christian nationalism;
• the importance of having Christian parliamentarians;
• a Muslim perspective on Christianity in the UK;
• the Tommy Robinson rally;
• defining Britain’s cultural story;
• newcomers arriving in British churches;
• differences between British and American Christianity;
• evangelism that engages with right- and left-leaning listeners;
• encouraging Christians to engage across political divides.

Graham Nicholls (0:12)

Welcome to Affinity Talks Gospel, a podcast looking at issues connected with our churches and the Christian world across the UK. And my name is Graham Nicholls, I’m the Director of Affinity and I’m here with Lizzie Harewood, who’s the Executive Director, I think, of the Association of Christian Teachers – or the Executive Something.

Lizzie Harewood (0:32)

Executive Officer, I don’t think they want to give me ideas above my station, so, Officer.

Graham Nicholls (0:37)

Oh good, thank you Officer. And we are here with our special guest – as every guest is special – Andy Bannister from Solas. Hello Andy, tell us something about yourself.

Andy Bannister (0:49)

Oh, it’s great to be with you, Graham – that’s what my teachers used to say to me when I was a kid, that you’re special, and then I realised that wasn’t a compliment. So I head up an organisation called Solas – the Solas Centre for Public Christianity. We’re an evangelism and evangelism training ministry, so I guess I’m an evangelist, Christian communicator, broadcaster, writer, podcaster like yourself. And home these days is Swindon, glorious Swindon, England’s second capital city, Venice on the M4, but we work across the UK doing outreach, getting the gospel out of the halls of the church, schools, workplaces, universities and such like, and then helping Christians in churches feel a bit more confident to talk about Jesus in their workplaces and everyday lives, that’s what we do.

Lizzie Harewood (1:32)

Very quickly, oh I’m just very intrigued, what does Solas mean? I’m sure it’s got some clever meaning.

Andy Bannister (1:37)

Oh thank you for asking – but what I will say Lizzie, it’s not an acronym, if you google it as an acronym you get The Safety of Life at Sea, that’s not us. If you fall in the water call them, if you want to share your faith with someone in the water call us and them. It’s a terrible joke I know. So the serious answer is it’s a Gaelic word, Scott’s Gaelic word, because we were founded in Scotland back in 2010 by a guy called David Robertson, who’s quite well known in internet circles and has his own podcast. David was a Scottish pastor and has got a bit of vision for evangelism too, so we started there. So it’s the Gaelic word for light, particularly sunlight, so I think David loved the image of the light of the gospel going forth. And if you know your church history – and this is the Affinity podcast, everyone is theologically literate –right, so the five SOLAS of the Reformation, it’s a little play on words there. But it’s really the word for light, and I’m glad you asked because I love it, because it’s a great conversation starter. Because people without a faith, if they ask me who I work for, I say Solas, everybody asks, “What does that mean?” And then you’re into the story, so yeah, it’s the light of the gospel.

Graham Nicholls (2:39)

Now there’s lots of evangelistic things we could talk about, but today we’re just going to focus on the spiritual climate in terms of interest in nation and heritage, and related issues of immigration, and identity, and so on, and how that relates to evangelism, and speaking to people who are not believers, and kind of just a few thoughts about that. Now we’re not going to tackle the whole topic of Christian nationalism, but I guess it might be just worth a quick working definition of how Christianity and nationalism are overlapping, certainly in our culture in states at the moment. So do you want to have a go at that, Andy? Easy question!

Andy Bannister (3:21)

Oh my word, thank you for that, so I could have a go, and then you can refine it. Well, I think straight away I want to say – just put some clarifications in, Graham, because the term seems to mean different things to different people, that’s half the problem. So I think to me, that’s a generous definition, Christian – we know what that means, hopefully, the lordship of Christ, we’re following Jesus, you know, saved by him. Nationalism, you know, means love of nation, really prioritising nation, thinking that our nation is important and special, and on their own, of course those two things are fine. You know, no one has – well I suppose [with the] Scottish National Party we have a nationalist party in the UK that’s gone for years – it’s when you start merging them together gets tricky. And to me, I suppose, the big question – I think I nicked this idea from Pete Linus at Evangelical Alliance.

Andy Bannister (4:16)

It really depends where the capital letter goes. Or if you put the word “Christian” in bold, and “nationalism” in less bold. You’re probably okay – yeah, you want to think through how those things interact, but the idea of Christian comes first, and then my Christian faith affects how I deal with the nation. And I think actually most Christians in history, by that definition, will have been Christian nationalists, most Christians for most of history thought being a Christian affects my politics. If you start making the Christian word smaller, and the nationalism word bigger, then I think you get into difficulties when you start going, “Okay, this is a Christian nation – if you don’t fit that definition, you’re out on your ear. Really, we want to make sure that we enforce all of our values using the levers of the state.” That has not historically ended so well. The Roman Empire went a bit that way post-Constantine.

Andy Bannister (5:02)

But I think if you can hold those two things in tension – and say that, “Yeah, Christian nationalism is trying to take seriously, that is Christians, our faith, our politics” – I personally wouldn’t use the term, maybe I prefer the term patriotism, maybe it’s nationalism. Somebody once said you can think of it this way: take it out of politics. Use an analogy. I think about mothers, for example. So patriotism is like saying, “Mothers are great – mums are amazing. My mum is amazing, let me tell you about her – and then let me tell you, I’d love to know about your mum.” Nationalism says, “Mums are great, my mum’s amazing – your mum’s a rotter, she’s a stinker – I don’t have anything to do with her.” That’s the difference. I love my nation, but recognise other people love theirs, so I’d like to say I’m a patriot, certainly not nationalism.

Lizzie Harewood (5:51)

I think that’s really interesting, and I think it’d be very hard for any Christian to argue that Christianity shouldn’t have some influence – and shouldn’t have some continuing influence over a nation. Any Christian that actually has a conviction that the Bible is true, surely would argue that. I suppose we would perhaps differ when it comes to what that means with regards to the political process, or what it would mean by making a nation Christian rather than persuading… yeah, I suppose, because it does meet a lot of critique, doesn’t it, particularly –

Andy Bannister (6:37)

It does, doesn’t it – yeah, very quickly, I know Graham was itching to say something very wise, sorry Graham – what I would say is, yeah, it’s right. Then that’s the tension, isn’t it. But you look at Wilberforce – I used him earlier, because it’s easier when you shift the lens historically because you can learn from another. He was told to take his theology out of politics. People went for him left, right and centre, because he was saying the Bible is really clear that men and women bear the image of God, and therefore slavery is an absolute monstrosity. And people said, “Get your theology out of here.” That this is Christianity, [it] doesn’t belong in politics. And by the way, of course, initially he wasn’t going to go into politics. He was going to be a pastor, and then it was that famous conversation with John Newton, where Newton’s like, “Mate” – I’m paraphrasing – “Mate, you were called: God’s called you to politics, we need you in politics.” So I think, yes, you’re right, Lizzie, you can take a very strong view of that. But I think some people would still push back on you. And I think it’s really interesting, having lived in North America – I was in Canada for six years, okay, and just taking perhaps an easier issue than perhaps the nationalism one, take the abortion one – I think Christians in the UK, we have gone soft on that issue, we’re afraid if we stand up and say what we think, the BBC might not like us, so we don’t say things. And that’s why it’s an easier one to challenge people on them, before you get some of the bigger ones, so yes, there’s some tension.

Graham Nicholls (8:05)

Yeah, and I would be where Kevin De Young is. I don’t know if you read any of his stuff on Christianity. I liked the idea that he rejects some elements, but actually says it would be good if Christians had an influence, even a preferential situation in any nation. And I think a lot of the critique of Christian nationalism, however it’s defined, is suggesting that it’s possible to have a benign state – which somehow lets everything coexist in beautiful harmony, and Christians could express themselves fully – and that we don’t believe there is. So although, sure, the church grew up in the Roman Empire, which was hostile in lots of ways, we don’t choose that as a preference, do we, to be persecuted and sent to the lions.

Andy Bannister (8:54)

The other thing, by the way, just as a footnote – we haven’t got time to cover it now, but my academic background is Islamic studies. I’m unusual as a Christian, I have a PhD in Islam, and so I find it fascinating, all of this. I talk to Muslim friends – they see absolutely no problem with the idea that your faith would affect your country, and that doesn’t therefore mean, because they think it, we should think it. But I think the fact that we think it’s unusual, in some parts of the church, to think that, as you put it there, that actually the country might look massively better in a number of ways if there was a lot more Christian influence – a lot more gospel salt and light. Most of my conversations with Muslims are around they don’t think our theology is right because they think the Qur’an is correct and the Bible isn’t. But I’ve never had a Muslim go to me, “Oh no, you should keep your Christianity to yourself.” In fact, the critique is quite the opposite: I’ve had Muslims say the reason Christianity has been proved false is because [you can] look at the West, it’s decadent, it’s corrupt, it’s because Christianity doesn’t work. So it’s really interesting who you talk to and which way the conversation goes.

Graham Nicholls (9:55)

Absolutely, let’s move towards thinking. Okay, so there’s that going on in Christian circles, but there is a whole sense of confusion, in a sense, about nationality, about identity, about what it means to be, in particular, British or any of the other nations that make up the United Kingdom. And how is that impacting evangelistically – where are some of the touch points or even differences in how you might evangelise because of that climate? You’ve got people kind of trying to grab a sense of Christianity even if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour – they like the idea of a Christian heritage. So what’s going on, how do we connect with that?

Andy Bannister (10:37)

Well, just a couple of very sort of brief stories that illustrate that. Right, the other month we had the famous rally – the Tommy Robinson rally in London and the carol service. And I think a lot of people got very nervous about the Christian symbols. So there was obviously people going, “Wow, we need to rediscover what it means to be British and let’s use Christian symbols.” And by the way, it wasn’t just a sea of white faces, I had some Asian friends from my church who went up to that one, so there’s that, and many of us were like, “Oh, interesting.”

Andy Bannister (11:04)

The other story is a couple of years ago – I have a friend who runs a ministry in London, Christian Heritage, which you may have kind of come across. And he does walking tours in Christian history, and he told me a lovely story of two or three people over the last couple of years particularly, who’d come to faith because they were really interested in the history and what it meant to be part of their nation, and started poking around and had stumbled across the Christian past. And through that, almost semi-evangelised themselves, and just needed someone to join the dots and go, actually, there’s more here than just heritage: this is the story behind the heritage. So I think it’s interesting, again, there’s perhaps a problematic element and a more open one. What I would say, the bigger piece going on, Graham, and I’m seeing a lot among university students right now – be interesting, Lizzie, to get your take, because you’re at the younger end with high school.

Lizzie Harewood (11:54)

Oh, so I thought you’re talking about me being at the younger end.

Andy Bannister (11:57)

Oh, well, that too, of course you are. No, I meant the ACT tribe. I would say there’s a lot of what we’re seeing on uni campuses, Graham, is students really wrestling with the question of identity. I mean, what does it mean to be British? I think those of us who are English almost feel embarrassed to ask that question… The whole flag thing, I find hilarious – when all that kicked off. Again, I was six years in Canada, you can’t move for Canadian flags. Yeah, we think the Americans love their flag. The Canadians – there was one hung over our Sunday school room when my kids were at church and stuff, and they sang the national anthem in church every week, and it’s the Canadians – just this quiet, maple-flavoured nationalism. 

Andy Bannister (12:34)

So I think the English are like, “What does it mean to be English?” And then if you come here, “What does it mean? What are you coming to be part of?” So our immigrant friends are asking this too, and that’s when I think, as people stumble around trying to answer that question, that’s when, if you’re not careful, you can stumble into the more extreme forms of nationalism that others people and is horrific. But I think, as we’ve lost our national story – and we were saying just before we pressed record on this – one of the most interesting reads I read last year was a guy called Paul Kingsnorth – very well-known writer, novelist, now cultural commentator – wrote a book that lots of people were talking about late last year called Against the Machine. And that book really is diagnosing the issue that, as he puts it in that book, we’ve become unrooted, we don’t know who we are any longer. Every civilisation has had a national, often usually sacred story that it’s built around, and in the West that was Christianity, and that’s now gone. And he says now you’re left with left and right fighting over the desiccated remains of Western culture. He said Western culture’s dead, and it will remain dead until it rediscovers its story. He’s now a Christian – he wasn’t until fairly recently, and I think we see that playing out. And I think there’s a gospel opportunity there to actually lean in and begin going, “Well okay, where is our identity? Is nation strong enough as an identity? Is family strong enough as an identity?” Nothing wrong with family and nation and tribe – they’re important – but is there something even more rooted than that? And I think that’s a question that begins taking us right into gospel territory.

Lizzie Harewood (14:06)

I think that’s a really interesting observation, and something we’ve noticed in our area. There’s been that itch that is being scratched by a lot of folk around us, and as we’ve seen. And we can argue and discuss the legitimacy of the quiet revival. But certainly on the ground, and from our experience, we’ve seen a lot of younger men come along to our church recently over the last years, many of them asking these kinds of questions. And I suppose you might say that, yeah, there’s been that interest in cultural renewal. What does it mean to me? What does it mean to claim my heritage as it were? And that’s the kind of the knob on the door, isn’t it? You open that.

Andy Bannister (14:54)

I love that, mate, I love that.

Lizzie Harewood (14:56)

Oh well, thank you.

Andy Bannister (14:57)

No, that’s a lovely metaphor, I love that idea. It’s the novel. I suppose I’m immersed too much in Tolkien and Lewis, so I like to think there’s a line of lampposts that lead people home. And to go, “How do we point out the lights?” And say it’s a question of my nation – it’s a perfectly good question, just don’t stop there.

Lizzie Harewood (15:17)

And actually, I would say – so we’ve had one chap recently, he’s a 21 year old guy, bricklayer from just up the road, and he came in feeling quite disenfranchised, I’d say. And we’ve really got to know him, and my husband, who’s our pastor, has been really investing time and chatting to him, and doing some Bible study with him. And he’s been at church every week for the past however many months, and he admitted to himself that he came along with some ideas and views that were – now he’s looking in retrospect – a bit unsavoury. But he is now starting to see that. And actually the discipleship I see already, I mean, I think he gets the gospel, and we pray in faith that he is a believer. And it’s just been such an encouragement. And I suppose the worry is that – and this is what I hear particularly from women – I think their concern is that those of us who are seeing this as an evangelistic opportunity are naive. And perhaps the strong man masculinity that we might see in Christian communities, maybe in the US, we’re trying to import that, and actually big up that element, rather than look out for the disenfranchised and the vulnerable. And I suppose, in my perspective, I think it doesn’t need to be one or the other, I think.

Andy Bannister (16:53)

I agree. 

Lizzie Harewood (16:54)

Open the door, and then disciple well.

Andy Bannister (16:57)

I agree, and just a couple of comments on there. First, I love that story. I’m hearing a lot of those stories. There’s a friend of mine who’s a pastor here in Swindon, he told me a story – I think it was early last year or late 2024. He said he was sitting in the church lobby one day with his administrative guy just doing the church accounts. A couple walked through the door in their late 30s, and he said, “Oh, can we help you?” And they said, “Oh, yeah, we’ve lived in the town for about nine years now. We just realised it’s about time we start going to church, what do we do?” And it’s amazing – three hours later, one of them, they’d been led to Christ. And the other guy, I think the husband, came three months later. But again, it was like they were looking for – there was something missing in their story. And then, on that story, I suppose the question I ask myself, Lizzie, is which is the biggest risk? Because I’m always a great believer in thinking, if you imagine theology and cultural engagement like the apex of a roof, and there are two sides you can fall off on. You can certainly fall off on the nationalism side. And by the way, I’m always very careful to – I don’t like, in some sense, making American Christianity always the whipping boy.

Lizzie Harewood (18:05)

No, no, no, absolutely.

Andy Bannister (18:07)

I know you weren’t doing that.

Lizzie Harewood (18:08)

There are many godly, wonderful Americans.

Andy Bannister (18:10)

No, no, I know you weren’t, but some people do. And my point is always, yeah, there are problems, and it’s easier to see someone else’s fault. It’s easier to see the speck in someone else’s eye, right. And the flip side is American Christians are massively more generous. Speaking of someone who runs a Christian organisation, it’s much easier to fundraise over there than over here, and to go often much more bold in talking about their faith. Now, do they get some things wrong? Absolutely. That’s one side of the roof.

Andy Bannister (18:35)

The other side of the roof is the British one, that we sit there and we say absolutely, absolutely nothing. Monstrous stuff happens, whether we mentioned, I think, abortion briefly earlier, or big cultural pieces like all this stuff that’s kicking off around China right now. If there’s any regime on planet Earth that is actually genuinely evil, it’s the Chinese Communist Party and the way it’s exterminated the Uyghurs and the Tibetans. And we sit and we don’t say anything [because] we might rock the boat. So I don’t know which side of the roof you’re going to fall off, but you’re going to fall off one of them. 

Andy Bannister (19:02)

We need to somehow balance that piece in the middle, and then the other – which leads it back into your question a moment ago. The other issue in all of this too, that’s an evangelistic opportunity, is what’s the answer? And of course, our secular friends have no answer. Just encouraging kids to all be nice to each other and I don’t actually think that works. What’s the basis? You know, your new friend at church, what’s the basis for helping that guy and go, “Okay, we need to change some attitudes here.” And encouraging him to go to crochet classes and just knit a few Bible verses onto the wall. 

Andy Bannister (19:37)

We need something muscular. We need guys to come alongside and disciple him and go, “There is a way to be robust and masculine and strong. Jesus was all those things. Look at the people that hung around him.” I don’t believe the fishermen were attracted to wimpiness, but Jesus did it in a way that didn’t damage people, that didn’t victimise people. And I think what really struck me – I read last year – one book recommendation already. The other one was Nancy Pearcey’s book on masculinity. The title escapes me temporarily. That was much more impressive. I can remember it. It’s got masculinity in the title. It’s looking at this whole toxic masculinity thing. And it’s a really helpful book. She’s an American philosopher and she’s a woman writing into that space [that] the answer is not to destroy masculinity. The answer is biblical masculinity – to help guys be guys.And it’s going to look different to women. But the answer is not trying to downplay it.

Graham Nicholls (20:32)

Her book Love Thy Body was really significant.

Andy Bannister (20:35)

Yeah. So she’s the same author as that one. So if you Google Nancy Pearcey’s book…

Lizzie Harewood (20:39)

I think it’s The Toxic War on Masculinity. Toxic war on masculinity.

Andy Bannister (20:42)

I knew it had toxic in there. And by the way, she also makes the point without going down this rabbit [hole], there’s also toxic femininity. You know, why is bullying so bad on social media? Because social media is a wonderfully easy vector for the way that women bully, which is social exclusion and words. Men tend to do it with our fists. Women do it with their words and their emotions. And, you know, let’s call both genders back. Anyway, sorry, we’ve gone down a tangent there.

Graham Nicholls (21:06)

I mean, what Lizzie recounts happens in our church. And because you’ve seen our church, Andy, because it’s a reasonable size, you think, well, people were wondering. I was meeting up with my sister over Christmas, and they’re in a little church in Three Legged Cross in the middle of the new forest. And what a funny name. Three Legged Cross. I don’t know why it’s called that. Very typically English.

Andy Bannister (21:31)

I was going to say you want English culture. There you go. Mad place names.

Graham Nicholls (21:35)

She just said in passing – it’s quite a small church in a small village, really – just outside Greenwood. And they had walk ins. And I just watched the baptism recently. They got baptised early January, this couple that just walked in. No Christian background, exactly the same. I’m thinking, wow, this is really a thing because they’re not an attractional church. You know, they’re not big. They haven’t got great music. They haven’t got regular preacher at the moment. It’s like, why would someone wander in there?They’re not doing great evangelistic programmes. They didn’t do anything. And this couple wandered in. So, yeah, that is the thing. 

Graham Nicholls (22:14)

Now, what I was going to ask you, Andy, was it’s okay saying that this yearning for kind of nationalism identity could be a way in to talking about finding identity in Christ and so on. I suppose my question is: is there also some resonance in that we’re not just telling them there’s identity in Christ? We are trying to also have the attraction of – we have a great work ethic. We have a great nation ethic. We have a great neighbourhood ethic and it all works. We have a great family ethic. So those values that people are yearning for, even Tommy Robinson, he – in principle, whatever he’s done in his life, I think he thinks family is and he thinks neighbourliness is a good idea. And we have stuff about that as well as just – we’re not saying forget nationalism – just be a Christian, you’ll have identity – are we?

Andy Bannister (23:14)

No, I think you’re right. I think one of the challenges with whether it’s a Tommy Robinson or Jordan Peterson or anyone in that kind of space, there’s this sort of desire, isn’t there, to have the fruits without the roots going on. But that doesn’t mean we ignore the fruits and go, “Let’s just talk about roots.” I think you’re absolutely right of going – I think there’s a reason why we’re drawn to things like family and nation of those things, because I think as Christians, we don’t want to go – they’re part of a biblical anthropology that God has put us into families. He’s put us into nations. He’s put us into communities. The trouble is that we go wrong in all kinds of ways. So to go, how do we find something that works? I think you can construct an argument that says, well, Christianity has got has got skin in the game and a track record. There’s a reason why, Ben Scrivener’s book, The Air We Breathe – but based upon Tom Holland’s Dominion book did well because he was playing into that space of going Christianity has given us a foundation for so many really good things. 

Andy Bannister (24:13)

So there’s a pragmatic element. But I think the mistake we sometimes make is to then separate that from the gospel. Christians can do that. Sometimes we don’t make enough of the of the links. And I was talking some of the other day about this and saying – I think one of the things that fascinates me, Graham, is that you look at Christian ethics for a moment. You know, the whole of Christian ethics basically says “Jesus died for you.” Philippians 2: all that he’s done for you – in the light of that, in the light of gratitude, in response to that go and live differently. Christian ethics is a lived response to something God’s done for us. I wonder if we need to be doing more thinking around that, how that works with how they engage with with politics. Christian engagement with politics and culture needs to be more of that lived response to what God has done for us in Christ. So the best thing for Tommy Robinson would be become a Christian. But then I think we’d be naive if we went, “Right, you then need to drop every bit of politics.” So I’d hope. Don’t misquote me on this. I’d hope the politics would continue, but it would look very, very different. And my hope – that can happen.

Andy Bannister (25:05)

I’m not being naive as I – again with the Muslim hat on. I have many, many friends who are former Muslims who are fiery and firebrands on fire for Islam and, you know, in all kinds of ways. And then Jesus got all of them. And so it was amazing. You know, my late friend, Nabil Qureshi, he wrote the book Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. So going to see the pre-Jesus Nabil and the post-, the fire and the passion and the energy were there. It’d become Christianised. Or think about historically when we preach the Viking tribes and we converted the Vikings in church history. And many of them went on to be incredible missionaries and men and women of God. They didn’t lose the spark. So how do we play into that space? I think we’ve got more thinking to do and it’s going to affect both evangelism and discipleship.

Lizzie Harewood (25:49)

It sounds like you could write a book, Andy.

Andy Bannister (25:51)

Not on this one. I’m writing other books. I’m literally this week writing a Christmas book for 2027. Publishers have a really long lead time. But yes, someone needs to write something on. There’s a book in there to be written, I think, on that history piece of going, look what we did in the past. You look at some of those templates, men and women of the past, to engage culture and engage well. And we see as heroes. But if you took a Wilberforce or a Countess of Huntingdon, and dropped them in today, we would probably go, my word, that’s a bit extreme. But actually, maybe they need to give us that little poke.

Graham Nicholls (26:27)

Yeah. Just another connection point that we thought about in scoping this just before we started. Do you think we, and you in particular at student context, but probably all of us in evangelism, need to think about a range of connection points and not always the obvious ones? You mentioned environment and a few others. Is that something to think about?

Andy Bannister (26:49)

Yeah, very much so. This doesn’t just apply to student context. This is why I think preaching and teaching Graham, particularly when you’re preaching evangelistically. So an idea that’s been banging around my head for a while and percolating was – I was really encouraged, I was speaking at the UCCF staff conference a couple of weeks ago. So UCCF, for folks who don’t know, that’s the organisation that networks all the Christian unions together across the UK. And they had 200 of their staff together. And I was one of the speakers. And it was one of the best. There’s something that was said from the front that really made me think. Somebody made the comment, “How do we start thinking about doing university mission weeks and putting, say, a lunch bar on? So traditionally, you put a topic on that might engage people like “Does human rights make sense without God?” You offer a sandwich lunch and students come – get people. Those are great.

Andy Bannister (27:35)

But historically, we’ve tended to do – and I say we, that’s across hundreds of CUs and lots of different speakers and so forth – we tend to do slightly left leaning topics, you know, human rights, justice, environment. I’ve got a talk I’ve done for years on, you know, does God care about the environment? And you start from green issues. You don’t stop there. You start from there, come across the gospel. And the point was made: what if, given that more of more and more students are tracking right – that the student population politically is just doing what the rest of the population is doing, is fracturing. So you’ve got a lot more leaning green, ignoring Labour and Conservative, a lot more leaning Reform. So it’s going this way. So how do we do topics in our lunch bars, for example, that also engage those on the right? So family, nation, security – it doesn’t mean, again, you endorse those topics and get everything you think is correct. But how do we hang topics out there that a student who leans that way might go, oh, yeah, I’ll come and hear about that. Or equally, if you’re doing a more general one, if you’re talking so on human rights, don’t just use racism as your example. I mean, everyone should care about racism. Absolutely. But it is traditionally an issue that probably somebody who is more politically of the left is going to naturally go, “Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I’m all over that.” 

Andy Bannister (28:49)

What about, as well as talking about racism, talking about things like free speech. For example, does human dignity mean that you should not be shut down for your political opinions? Now, suddenly you’re getting students on both the left and the right going, OK, I want to hear you again on this because you’re speaking my language. And then the same thing happens. You just link to the imago dei – that’s what gives the foundation to human rights and you’re into the gospel. 

Andy Bannister (29:16)

So what I’m basically saying, Graham – and it was really exciting to see other others in the student space thinking about this at that UCCF event – is just how do we broaden our reach of topics? Whether we’re doing student stuff, stuff in schools, or if you’re preaching an evangelistic message that you want to be hooking into something in culture. And all of this, of course, the big framework, as you know, is Act 17. Yeah, Paul wanders around Athens, sees the unknown God statue, goes down to the Areopagus and uses it as the bridging point. And I’ve written on this in my book How to Talk about Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot. Dan Strange has written on it – Making Faith Magnetic – there’s lots of good stuff out there on how to do that. I’m just encouraging us to widen our examples.

Lizzie Harewood (29:57)

I think when I was a student, the topics of conversation were much more kind of existential – as in, is there proof for God? Or, as you say, particularly to do with the environment. Actually, that probably wasn’t so popular when I was a student, but very much that new atheist era.

Andy Bannister (30:17)

Yeah, that new atheist space, right. You are young. I was about right when I referred to you as the youth wing.

Lizzie Harewood (30:25)

Oh well, thank you. But yeah, as you say, I’m sure those questions still exist in people’s minds, but the ones that are at the fore at the moment are so much more about identity and culture and and perhaps reclaiming some of those things that our society has lost their grasp on, like family and birth rate, even things like that. These are big topics I’m seeing a lot of conversation about. Yeah.

Andy Bannister (30:53)

I think we’ve got very comfortable that the questions always lean a particular way. I think it’s always – I forget who first said, I think it was Spurgeon, but most quotes go to Spurgeon and turn out not to be –who said, “Pray with a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other.” I’ve also heard it assigned to D.L. Moody. But somebody said it.

Graham Nicholls (31:14)

And I think John Stott said it as well.

Andy Bannister (31:16)

Who said it?

Graham Nicholls (31:17)

John Stott as well.

Andy Bannister (31:18)

John Stott. Well, there we go. Exactly. So you can’t go wrong with that a Stott quote. The point being is that you look at what your friends and colleagues are talking about and then find any way, all things to all people, as Paul said, to start from where they’re and go, that’s really interesting. Have you ever wondered and try and get them behind that?

Graham Nicholls (31:37)

So I think it’s wonderful about the way you’re describing it. It’s actually a very unifying point about the gospel as well, isn’t it? That actually we live at the moment – because of all this searching for identity, we’re more fragmented. I mean, it’s hard because you haven’t mentioned my age because I’m older than both of you. And I think we’re –

Lizzie Harewood (31:55)

Much older!

Graham Nicholls (31:57)

Much older. I think we are more fragmented than we were when I was younger. I think part of this search for nationalism is a sense that it’s not even just some marginal left/right politics. There’s a complete sort of lack of respect and distrust from the other in all directions, not just about race or heritage, but about just politics. And the gospel, of course, as well as being true and saving us with respect to God, unifies us with other people, just like the Jews and Gentiles unified under Christ. And what you were saying about a convergence between a left issue, which might be human rights or racism, with a slightly more right-leaning issue. They’re both unified under the lordship of Christ on there, which is a wonderful thing about the gospel.

Andy Bannister (32:47)

They are. And it’s interesting – as you say that, it reminds me – I thought of this earlier, actually, but then we went in a slightly different direction. Dear old Tim Keller, I think it was Tim Keller, once said that a test that the church you’re in is a real gospel church is that you look around on a Sunday and there are other people in your congregation who you wouldn’t be in the same room with. They would be your enemies were it not for the for the for the gospel. And, you know, one of the things I really love, actually, about the church that we attend in Swindon, it’s probably – it’s funny. I come from a working class background because my granddad wasn’t and my dad was a teacher. So he was the first one to lift out of that. But now we are probably middle class. 

Andy Bannister (33:21)

But the church we attend straddles the divide  So there are definitely on a Sunday morning – it’s really interesting. There’ll be no place I would meet and hang out with this person were it not for the church. That’s not saying I’m perfect or the church is perfect. But it encourages me that that the church that we attend in Swindon, the pastor and the team are doing a great job of being that. I think the bigger question – I don’t know the answer here. Maybe there’s a very much a role for organisations like Affinity, Graham. They’re in that more public space. Are there ways that we can encourage people to be sitting down together?

Andy Bannister (33:53)

One of my friends said a few years ago he went to a beautiful event in Scotland where they got together Christians. I think it was three Christian parliamentarians from different parties. It was Kate Forbes for the Scottish Nationalists, Modo Fraser for the Conservatives. And I forget who it was for Labour. And he said they got the three of them sitting down together. And it was an evening they did on how firstly, how, as Christians do you engage in politics? But there was also how do you disagree well? And my colleague Gavin said it was beautiful gospel witness, actually. Because it showed that you can disagree profoundly on a whole range of issues, but you can be friends and you can get on because of the gospel. And he said we need more of that in today’s age. Let’s model difference. Let’s encourage it. Let’s get Christians who are very different sit down together and show this.

Lizzie Harewood (34:41)

I’ve noted that this topic has inflamed discussions online, particularly within the Christian community, because there is such diversity of of opinion. And I think, as you say, it’s not particularly healthy to see these play out online when you can’t be in the same room as someone and value their humanity by looking in their eyes. And I found it quite challenging, isn’t it?

Andy Bannister (35:14)

It’s challenging. I was thinking about this the other day, Lizzie, because it occurred to me – I don’t know why it took so long to occur to me, because I’m getting old, not as old as Graham, but still old – things like it’s interesting to look at Jesus’ politics, because within the community, within the twelve disciples, man, he had both sides of the divide. Because he had collaborators. Matthew – in fact, The Chosen – really shows this well, because they really lean into that. He was a tax collector. He was a collaborator [with the Romans]. And then on the other extreme, you had Simon the Zealot, who is a murdering thug. And you had Judas Iscariot, possibly from the name Sicarii, also one of the guys who would take politics fairly [seriously]. So Jesus had extremists at both ends. He had collaborators. And those who were like, “No, we kill the Romans.” And somehow they sit down together and become friends. I know the Judas thing went slightly wrong, but for different reasons. But my point is going, yeah, we need to figure this out. 

Andy Bannister (36:10)

And I think the other we desperately have to find a way of doing, if we’re going to talk about politics too, Lizzie and – the old adage, you point a finger, three fingers pointing back at you – how do we take account of our own position? You know, I’m a political floating voter. I have been a member of four political parties. I’m not going to tell you what I’m currently a member of, but I remember most of them. I think when you’re on the left – now, I was certainly a member of the Labour Party in 1997. I joined when when Blair came in and I took a while to realise, oh, do you know what? As a Christian, it’s very easy to assume that your your views line up with the centre left – the whole Guardian-reading BBC thing. Nothing wrong with that. But once you start thinking that’s where everyone should be, then the problem happens. And I think that’s now spread. 

Andy Bannister (36:54)

Actually, I think there are people on the right who go, well, any Christian obviously would vote Reform. Or a Christian obviously would vote Labour or would vote whatever. And to go, somehow we’ve got to learn some some theological humility and go, do you know what? We actually firstly need Christians in all the major political parties. And then secondly of going, everybody sees something and misses something.So could we please just stop demonising people and going – because of this or because of that – Danny Kruger’s terrible because of this or Krish Kandir’s terrible because of that again. Hey, we’re all in the brothers and sisters in Christ. How do we help and encourage one another? And we need witnesses in in all those parties. Because in all those parties, there are the parliamentarians who need the gospel.

Graham Nicholls (37:39)

Absolutely. That is a brilliant note to end on both unity and humility. Where can we find out more about Solas if anyone’s listening to this and interested.

Andy Bannister (37:48)

That’s very kind. We’ve got a terribly awkward URL: Solas-cpc.org. Best way is to Google me. If you Google “Andy Bannister speaker” or “Andy Bannister evangelist”. You’ll find the Solas website. It should be the number one hit. And we’ve got loads of content, both in terms of sharing with your non-Christian friends and starting conversations, whether on this issue or any issue. Or if you’re a Christian who wants to get a bit of sort of steel in your backbone to encourage you to share Christ with your friends. Lots of stuff there too.

Graham Nicholls (38:12)

I highly recommend all the stuff and I highly recommend Andy, who’s spoken at our church. So if you’re listening, book him up. Brilliant. Thank you both for your time. We’ll see you another time on Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast.