Podcast: The 1.5 Billion Still Waiting for a Bible with Martin Dickson

In this episode of the Affinity Talks Gospel podcast, hosts Graham Nicholls and Lizzie Harewood sit down with Martin Dickson from Wycliffe Bible Translators. They discuss:

• Martin’s role at Wycliffe and his pre-Wycliffe story;
• the extraordinary number of people who don’t yet have the people in their heart language;
• Wycliffe’s approach to translation;
• Wycliffe’s current projects and prayer points.

Graham Nicholls (0:12) 

This is Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast and my name is Graham Nicholls. 

Lizzie Harewood (0:18) 

And I’m Lizzie Harewood and we’re joined today by Martin Dixon from Wycliffe Bible Translators. Now Martin is it Wycliffe or Wycliffe because I noticed Graham you were saying… 

Graham Nicholls (0:29)

I did both just now yeah.

Martin Dickson (0:32) 

Wycliffe is what I know it as so, yeah, Wycliffe Bible Translators. 

Lizzie Harewood (0:37) 

Yeah, that’s that’s exactly what I would have said. 

Graham Nicholls (0:41) 

Yeah, and you’ve been there a little while. Tell us a little bit about yourself particularly what you were up to before you you were there. 

Martin Dickson (0:51) 

Yeah, so I joined Wycliffe in September. Before that I’d spent about 11 years with an organisation called Safe Families, recently merged with Safe Families and Home for Good. So Safe Families was about recruiting and training local volunteers from Christian churches to support families and saw some massive impacts on families as a result of that work. Prior to that I’d spent 10 years with Youth for Christ, as a centre director in the Wirral, which is home for me, and just really enjoyed that as well. So I’ve always been involved in church engagement, church mission, faith sector work but slightly different flavours of it for the last few years.

Graham Nicholls (1:36)

Yeah, I mean this new job seems very different. Sorry, Lizzie, you go ahead. 

Lizzie Harewood (1:39)

Yeah, I was just going to say, what is your precise role with Wycliffe? 

Martin Dickson (1:42) 

So I’m director for churches, so it’s a very similar role to what I was doing with Safe Families, a very different mission. So all surrounding church engagement. So my real passion is about releasing the potential in the church or playing a role in releasing the potential in the church. And I love the local church and I see massive potential in it for a whole load of things. And the privileges of the roles I’ve always been in is I’ve got to play a role in that, which is wonderful really. And I’m grateful to God for (the opportunity. 

Graham Nicholls (2:23)

What about your own experience of becoming a Christian? Where and how was that? 

Martin Dickson (2:29) 

Brought up in a Christian home, my dad worked for Youth for Christ when I was growing up and had led some church stuff. I got my first Bible off an OM ship when it came into Birkenhead and I think I was 12 years old and I think it was the Doulos came in. I went and got a Bible and it was one of the – remember the Good News Bible with all the pictures in it? I loved it, so definitely had a sense, a belief, I suppose it would be, of the death and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins and the need for a personal relationship.

Martin Dickson (3:06)

But it was belief and it probably didn’t become faith until I was a late teen. I really moved away from faith, I moved away from church. I got frustrated and fed up with it but I had a real encounter with God when I was 18 that really brought me back strong and at that point made a commitment that this was going to be what life was going to be about. And I again took a further step up when I joined Youth for Christ. Each year at the Youth for Christ conference, they pray the Methodist covenant prayer. I don’t know if you know of it but really very powerful. It starts, “I’m no longer my own but yours, put me to what you will, rank me with whom you will” – and goes on from there. And praying that prayer and really meaning it, I think had a radical impact on my life and took me into some incredible adventures with God. 

Lizzie Harewood (4:00)

So what led you to Wycliffe then because, although obviously you’re engaging with the church, you’re serving the church, you’re enabling the church to serve parachurch ministries, what led you in particular to Wycliffe? 

Martin Dickson (4:18)

In the back end of my time with Safe Families – so we built Safe Families – there was a leadership team of us who built Safe Families from probably about 20 staff members up to nearly 250 once we’d done the merge. It was founded by Peter Vardy – Sir Peter Vardy, the name you’ll know – and our first chief exec, Keith Danby. And we’d taken it, we’d done some amazing stuff really with big funding from governments but Peter’s support as well and others took it from there. And as I say, we’d grown, we had the new chief exec and grown it to 250 with the merge. We were starting to look at the next 10 years of growth and development and, it’s hard to describe, it was almost like the anointing had gone for the next 10 years. I knew that I was in the right place at the right time and yet reached the point where it didn’t feel like the right place anymore and there was a sense of grief in that because I loved the work, I loved my colleagues, I loved what we were doing. And yet that sense of, in my spirit, it was no longer mine to take forward and do you know what? Sean has come in and has taken the role on that I’d left. He’s just going to be amazing for it, he’s the right person for the right time so absolutely God was in it.

Martin Dickson (5:43)

And this is the right time for me for Wycliffe I believe. 

Graham Nicholls (5:47)

Yeah, so for people who might not know – I think many people would be listening to this – but, just broadly, what does Wycliffe do? 

Martin Dickson (5:56)

Yeah, so Wycliffe partners with local people all over the globe to see Bible translation. If you would imagine what it would be like to lead a church or personal discipleship or evangelism or loads of the things that we take for granted in the UK church and our own faith, what would it be like to try and do those things without having the Bible in your own language? I think people think that everybody in the world’s heard of John 3:16. It’s not the case: there are over 550 languages globally where there is no Scripture whatsoever and so evangelism, church planting, discipleship, personal discipleship – that is extremely difficult. Wycliffe Bible Translators is working to combat that.

Graham Nicholls (6:52)

Yeah, I have a little anecdote which I often trot out on these occasions but it was very compelling to me. We had a Chinese lady who came to us with her husband in our church. She’s a believer and he was not and they came to everything because she was a believer, she wanted her husband to come to faith too and they came to every meeting. I did evangelistic courses with him and everything. And after a while they went away to a Chinese speaking – I can’t remember if it was Cantonese or Mandarin they were speaking, whichever was their heart language – and they went away for a weekend and he became a  Christian. And I was a bit disgruntled because I thought, “We put so much work into you, man, and you then go away and you have one gospel message in your heart language and you’re converted.” Now I know there are many people who get converted in second languages but it was very illustrative to me of the fact that, particularly if you’re at a stretch in English, when you hear the gospel in your heart language it has a different kind of impact. And obviously for lots of people you’re translating for, they don’t even have a second language that they’re stretching to. So anyway I share that anecdote for what it’s worth.

Lizzie Harewood (8:11) 

I mean sorry to butt in there but I’m sure the Lord was using you to prime that man so he was still getting the seeds but perhaps there’s just something in that moment God used that heart language for something to click. 

Graham Nicholls (8:29) 

Absolutely, and you know he went on to be a great person in the church and we still have ongoing contact with him now. He’s back in a dangerous situation, actually, so you know the outcome has been really good so I’m very grateful. And I wasn’t really disgruntled it was more I thought this heart language is really a thing and you take it for granted. I’ve just been at a little mini international gathering where everyone’s speaking in English and you just take for granted that you can get away with that across Europe. So anyway, enough about me talking about my anecdotes.

Lizzie Harewood (9:08) 

Why does it matter? 

Martin Dickson (9:10) 

Well, think about the birth of the church, the day of Pentecost – the Spirit falls and it wasn’t that everybody understood one language, but everybody heard in their own language. So right from the birth of the church, there’s something special happening when people hear the gospel in their own language and it just it spans out from there. I’ve just come back from Uganda, actually, where I’m working with two people groups who’ve got New Testaments in their own language. And the power of it and the power they describe, of “God spoke to me in my language”. And the dignity that gives – but it makes it easy to engage with God, so if you’re trying to engage with God through the Bible in a different language, it actually means it’s an effort when you’ve got it in your own language and it’s explained and the meaning is in your own language.

Martin Dickson (10:06)

Meanings are really interesting thing – you may want to ask me about that, because when it’s in your own language and in your own culture, the meaning of it is different because it’s culturally meaningful. So imagine for an example passages where, in one place, it might be that we describe Jesus as our anchor –so ‘Jesus the anchor for our hope’ – but if you live in a nomadic tribe in the desert, where you’ve never seen a ship, what’s an anchor? And in that culture, “wash me white as snow” – it’s never snowed, it’s meaningless so you could translate the word but the word doesn’t mean anything.

Lizzie Harewood (10:43)

How do you navigate that because surely you don’t want to change what the Bible says. But yet how can you use a metaphor that actually makes sense to someone?

Martin Dickson (10:55)

Well, what’s important is what the Bible means. And there’s some choices to be made about the type of translation. So looking for three things – accuracy, so it’s got to be accurate and for some that would mean word-for-word accuracy. We’re much more about the meaning of those passages, so when somebody was inspired by God to write that, what did they mean when they wrote that? So, accuracy – the beauty of it – so the poetic language, it’s beautiful. And that beauty conveys something of God. So accuracy, beauty, clarity – is it clear? Does it make sense? So you could get an accurate word and it sounds beautiful and flows but it doesn’t make any sense to anybody. So that’s got to be dealt with. And then there’s a dignity element to it as well. So there are words where, if you had the exact translation, those words aren’t dignified words in that language so you’ve got to get all four pieces right.

Lizzie Harewood (11:55)

Now that’s interesting – would that link to some things that might be seen as unacceptable, then, in some cultures to mention or to talk about?

Martin Dickson (12:06)

Well, even in our NIV Bible, if we directly translated some of the words that we now read – it could potentially cause offence to us. So children who have no father, you can imagine the word that would be used, so it’s that sort of thing going on.

Lizzie Harewood (12:26)

I know my husband often talks about, when Paul’s expressing the things that he used to consider important [in Philippians 3:7-9], he says he now considers them to be literally “dung”, “excrement”, and he said but obviously we wouldn’t use that word. So I suppose that could be one example, I think.

Martin Dickson (12:50)

Yeah and the word “stronger than dung” – because he’s trying to make a very important point – it’s extreme language. Because it’s extreme, that’s how I see it now, so they’ll start and, when they’re doing the translation, this is local people, so there’s consultants who are helping local people. It’s not white saviour stuff – coming in and we’re doing it for you – perhaps in the way that it used to be done. So they start to look at what we call ‘key terms’. So what does redemption mean in a culture where there’s no such thing as redemption? Salvation, forgiveness, what do they mean and how do you express them? So I find it fascinating.

Graham Nicholls (13:36)

Scale it for us a little bit. You mentioned a number but it went over my head. In terms of people groups that don’t have the Bible in their own heart language, their mother tongue?

Martin Dickson (13:50)

Yeah, this is an exciting story. Two years ago, 1200 languages there were – thereabouts – with no Scripture whatsoever. Last year, over 900 languages, no Scripture whatsoever. This year, 550 with no languages. So it’s coming down.

Lizzie Harewood (14:06)

Wow!

Martin Dickson (14:07)

Yes, so this is the beauty of it so there’s a finish line – there’s an end in sight.

Graham Nicholls (14:14)

Why has it accelerated recently?

Martin Dickson (14:18)

There’s more people doing it. There’s a little bit of help, although not massively, from AI. The church is getting behind it – the churches in the UK and the US are really seeing this as important, and other places as well, of course. People are investing in it. And when there’s investments in it, we can start to see it.

Lizzie Harewood (14:37)

We have a lady that we support in our church who has just finished her life’s project in Chad – she went out, and she’s back in the UK now – and she helped, I’m not entirely sure how much she was involved in translating bits. She was involved in translating parts of the Bible into Chadian Arabic. I imagine that when you have some base language to work from – obviously I know that you would work to ensure that you don’t just pilfer bits of Arabic that aren’t inaccurate in another form of Arabic, but it can be, I suppose, useful to have language roots that share similarities. What is the process? How do you go about translating? It must be a very long process if you have to interact with people groups and then find some written language. I suppose there will be some languages that are already written down, but if there’s no written language it must be an incredibly long process.

Martin Dickson (15:56)

We have folks in our team who design language. Audio stuff’s really helpful now, so you don’t need a written language in lots of places. In some places they really want it – it gives such dignity to have your language written. That was some of what we saw in Uganda. There’s various processes – I heard one story about a place where they wanted a written Bible but there was no written language and so they got written languages from areas around the circumference of that place and took that because they wanted the language to look like those languages, but it was a new language, so they design it to look like the other languages in the area. It’s fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

Graham Nicholls (16:49)

What do you tend to translate from? Because presumably if you translate – say you took, for example, a good English translation, you could imagine many people could go out there and do that work, but in order to go and help a people group translate from Greek and Hebrew, that’s a higher level challenge, so what do you translate from?

Martin Dickson (17:21)

What gives you the impression it’s a higher challenge, if they don’t know English, what difference does it make where they start?

Graham Nicholls (17:28)

True enough, but I suppose the person who’s the enabler has to be competent in those languages, I think that’s my point really.

Martin Dickson (17:37)

Yeah, so imagine that the translators at a desk and they’ve got their computer in front of them and they’ve got a screen and on the screen they’ve got Hebrew, they’ve got Greek, and they can click into each of those words and understand what each of those words might translate as. They’ve also got a couple of English versions as well, so they’re translating directly from the original language, but with help to do that. 

Graham Nicholls (18:05)

Yeah, I can imagine that.

Lizzie Harewood (18:09)

So tell us a little bit more about the use of AI, because this intrigues me. How is that utilised and is it something that’s making your life easier? Does it perhaps have any unforeseen consequences as well?

Martin Dickson (18:26)

It’s a helpful tool in a suite of tools. And any tool comes with things that are good about it, things that are not so good about it. AI needs training, so if there’s no written language to start with, it can’t do anything because there’s nothing to train it on. If you’re able to train it with some existing materials, then it does accelerate slightly at the moment and there’s different tools being used for that. It’s a whole new world and so I’m not well-versed in the detail of it. But it is helpful, but it’s always going to need a human to read it and there are multiple stages of this where the translation happens, then it’s taken into the community and the community are asked what this means to you, and then it comes back and then the various stages and then final stages is that somebody, maybe not even a Christian actually, would read sections of it to a consultant and describe what they mean, so the consultant can understand that well actually yes, they’ve conveyed the meaning of that passage as we believe it was meant to be conveyed, so it’s about a 12-stage process, it depends on where it’s being done.

Graham Nicholls (19:43)

There’s loads of questions about that, but I’m going to jump back to the scaling question just for a sec, to say if the numbers come down and there’s – do you say 900, maybe, people groups? 

Martin Dickson (19:54)

About 550 languages now. 

Graham Nicholls (19:56)

550 languages, okay – perhaps it was 900 the year before or something. How many people does that represent?

Martin Dickson (20:06)

It’s 20% of the world’s population, so one in five – 1.5 billion people.

Graham Nicholls (20:11)

Still doesn’t have it in their own language?

Martin Dickson (20:13)

I had no idea when I started. It’s shocking isn’t it? You think it’s done?

Lizzie Harewood (20:19)

Wow, wow.

Martin Dickson (20:20)

Yes, wow, yeah.

Graham Nicholls (20:22)

Okay, that’s good that I asked that question. One in five still don’t have it in their own heart language. And when you translate, is it because a Christian who’s of that people group says we need a translation, or is it kind of evangelistic in a sense that – I don’t know – an evangelist is in that area and could really do with the Bible in their language that they’re trying to witness to? Where do the requests come from, as it were?

Martin Dickson (20:50)

Both. So where churches are being planted in new areas, they’re desperate for the Bible – or they’re desperate for anything, give us a verse, give us a New Testament, give us anything. And we often start with some Bible stories from the New Testament and then go through – there’s different levels of translation depending on the meaning, which I can talk about in time if it’s helpful. Or it could be there’s a mission organisation – we’re looking to do a campaign later on in this year for unreached people groups, so how do you reach people with the gospel if there’s no gospel in their language? It’s virtually impossible.

Lizzie Harewood (21:19)

And when you translate sections – say you translate some parables, or whatever it is you would start with, part of one of the Gospels – would you release that and print copies of that? Or would you wait until there’s a whole New Testament until that goes into kind of circulation?

Martin Dickson (21:52)

We’re working with 90 languages just at the moment. Many of those – there’s no way we could release them because it’s seriously risky, so most of the names of the projects that I know and most of the names of the people working on them are not the real names and not the real people. So the idea that you would print something on paper and release it – it simply couldn’t happen. But there’s underground printing going on. So there’s the multiple ways. And one of the brilliant stories I heard recently was that the translation was recorded onto somebody’s phone, and he brought his whole family together, and they sat and listened to the Gospel of Mark on his phone as a family. And so it’s just beautiful ways of doing it, really. Yeah, and you’re right, it starts with possibly a gospel or even just a story. Yeah, Mark Road Project in Nigeria, they gather people from the community and translate one Bible story, and then the ones who show real interest in that are then encouraged and actually trained. And actually some of them even get masters in it – they’re trained to begin translating gospel. And so the Book of Esther’s way more easy to translate than the Book of Revelation because it’s a narrative story – it’s about meaning.

Graham Nicholls (23:11)

Do you – as in Wycliffe – do the gospel work that goes with the translation, or do you stay in a lane of ‘we’re doing the technical stuff, someone else is driving the kind of gospel stuff’?

Martin Dickson (23:28)

There’s a good analogy about kind of digging wells: you dig a well and put a hand pump in it, and if you don’t teach anyone how to use the hand pump, the well is useless. So it’s no good that we would translate a Bible and then not engage in Bible engagement. So Wycliffe are not doing that – this is about empowering local people on the ground to do the work. We are enabling the church in the UK to support people who are doing this work for themselves overseas. And so it’s them sharing the gospel, it’s them doing the evangelism, it’s them planting the churches. So yes, we’re involved and yes, we support that, we don’t deliver that.

Graham Nicholls (24:12)

No, presumably though you come across, you’ve got your technical expert who’s trying to help the local team translating. You may well, I suppose, identify needs where there’s training needs or, you know, you can maybe help them with a particular project and maybe sometimes make that need known, I suppose, across your supporter base.

Martin Dickson (24:38)

Well, so there’s a project in – let’s say Asia – there’s a project in Asia and literacy is very, very low. And so, if you want people to engage with the Bible, you’ve got to engage literacy. We can’t just announce that we’re going to do Bible translation in this area for obvious reasons. So the way forward then was to launch preschools, so start to teach children how to read. When you teach the children how to read and then teach them to read the Bible, they go home and read that to their parents. So there’s an example of what you’re describing, so we support the preschools and there’s 12 of them now.

Lizzie Harewood (25:19)

And that’s copying the pattern that happened in the UK, precisely. This is what happened back in the time of the social reformers, back in the 1700s and the Victorian era. That’s exactly what happened.The church would teach children to read and write on a Sunday whilst the kids were in the fields or down the pits. They would be doing that during the week, Monday to Saturday, and on the Sunday they would go to Sunday school, learn to read and write through the Bible.

Martin Dickson (25:50)

So yeah, Thomas Guthrie and those guys doing it up in Scotland, exactly that sort of activity.

Lizzie Harewood (25:58)

So in terms of parts of the world that are most bereft, where would you say the biggest need is?

Graham Nicholls (26:13)

All the places you can’t mention. 

Martin Dickson (26:15)

Yeah, that’s why I’m pausing. 

Graham Nicholls (26:18)

You can be general, sort of big picture continent kind of thing.

Martin Dickson (26:25)

Africa and Asia.

Lizzie Harewood (26:27)

Yeah, yeah.

Martin Dickson (26:29)

I mean, there’s all sorts of stuff happening in Eastern Europe. We’ve got some brilliant projects with the Romani people in Romania and then pushing into Albania, and there’s some root languages that are working out there. So there’s 550 languages, there’s lots of them all over the place.There are different national Wycliffes, they’re all supporting the work. We’re particularly focused in Romania, Asia and Africa.

Graham Nicholls (27:02)

There’s always new things to discover. I happened to be meeting some people this week and I didn’t realise there’s a whole people group in the north of Scandinavia with their own language, which butt on to Norway, Sweden and then Finland. But there’s this little group of people that are a bit like the Eskimos on the American continent, but they have their own native language and customs and everything. So you suddenly discover these sort of people groups you didn’t even, I’d never even heard that there was.

Lizzie Harewood (27:36)

Yeah.

Graham Nicholls (27:36)

Perhaps you knew that already, Lizzie, because you’re well educated.

Lizzie Harewood (27:40)

No, no, I didn’t.

Graham Nicholls (27:40)

Yeah, there’s a bunch of people there with their own language and culture and this sort of – syncretistic, as it was described to me – religion with bits of everything, but mostly pagan worship stuff. So when you finish in Asia, you can go up to Scandinavia, which is not too far for you from the UK. 

Martin Dickson (28:01)

Yeah, absolutely. There may well be stuff happening up there. I don’t know off the top of my head, but yeah, perhaps there’s stuff happening.

Graham Nicholls (28:06)

Yeah, I think sometimes they’re quite isolated, aren’t they? A bit like some tribes in the Amazon where it’s not like they’re doing a lot of trade or interaction with the rest of the world. So they’re reaching them as a particular effort.

Lizzie Harewood (28:20)

I did – so this is one of these interesting facts – I went and spent a summer in Argentina with a people group called the Wichi tribe in northern Argentina. And Wycliffe Bible Translators were working with them when I was there and translating parts of the New Testament there. And really starting from scratch because they had only recently just started to transcribe a written language. But then they had to work with locals who largely spoke Spanish – Spanish Christians – then had to learn Wichi. And then it’s just a very long and arduous process.But the Wichi people were becoming Christians. And yeah, it was an absolutely fascinating experience being around them. But in terms of working with Wycliffe, do you look for folks who are very talented when it comes to learning languages and being able to grasp languages? Or can you just come in having absolutely no aptitude whatsoever?

Martin Dickson (29:34)

It depends what role you want to do. So we employed linguists and consultants and people who can design languages. But overseas, we employ security guards to look after people and people who can drive and people like me who do church engagement. So there’s a whole range of things, really. And lots of the folks who are doing that work are actually members. They’re not employed. So members is the pseudonym for missionaries so there’s 200 members – interestingly lots of those are in the UK now, rather than overseas because you don’t need to be overseas to do the consultancy work. Gone are the days where we would send somebody out to some place and they’d spend 10 years learning the language and then start to translate it. It’s just inefficient – there’s people out there who already speak the language, so yeah, let’s help them.

Graham Nicholls (30:24)

So as we come to an end, it’d be good if you shared anything that was public that we could pray about – and just any particular projects you’re involved in. That’d be really helpful.

Martin Dickson (30:38)

Yeah, so I imagine many of your folks would be from FIEC so we’re working on a big FIEC project. We’re at Rising Lights. We’ve got a video we’re showing at Rising Lights – it’s called ‘Words for Life’. It’s got a story of a leader in a place – I’m very excited, we’ll say it then. So we’ve got the opportunity to share more – so we raised that at the Leaders’ Conference and now at Rising Lights. So we’re really asking people to support that prayerfully – and financially, of course, it costs money to do translation. So that’s called the Wuldor Project – a pseudonym – and that’s a big project that’s happening at the moment. We’re working with New Wine on a project called Mark Road, which is in Nigeria, so there’s 60 language groups with no translation in Nigeria. We’re working with 40 of them over the next four years, 10 a year, so that’s a big project there. There’s about 90 we’re working on at the moment.

Lizzie Harewood (31:51)

I’m amazed at how much you can do – how many languages you’re able to have going concurrently. I guess you’ve learned to do this in a much more efficient, effective way, haven’t you? As you say, rather than necessarily going and living and learning and then transcribing.

Martin Dickson (32:14)

Yeah, it’s the efficiency of having consultants who can work on multiple projects with local people.

Graham Nicholls (32:20)

And what, in general, should people be praying for when they’ve got you in mind? I’ll allow you to [share your] contact details in a minute, so don’t panic.

Martin Dickson (32:29)

So some of the folks who do translation work are in danger – they’re in unreached areas, they’re in risky areas – so there’s always a prayer for safety for them and the typical stuff that folks in those areas might need: healthcare and the financial support they need. There’s always that happening, so we would always really value prayers for that. There are the staff team in the UK – there’s lots of work, and it’s hard work, but it’s enjoyable and it’s privilege, but it’s work and all of what it means for that. So health and vitality for our time in this country. And really the big prayer point is just the continued acceleration of this work. The idea that there is a finish line in sight that we could hit – and the greatest barrier to world evangelism would be gone. I think it’s so exciting, so churches praying into that… and truth be told, I need finances to follow prayers because I want people to pray for the money to come in and I have no awkwardness asking for that, because that’s what’s making it happen.

Graham Nicholls (33:46)

For yourself, be great to just give contact details – website details – and presumably you or one of your partners is willing to visit churches if they want to know more.

Martin Dickson (33:58)

Absolutely, yeah, we would love to visit churches and speak of this work and share some of the impact stories.

Graham Nicholls (34:06)

And the website?

Martin Dickson (34:15)

It’s wycliffe.org.uk/.

Graham Nicholls (34:25)

That’s really good. Thank you very much for the time today. That’s a very sobering thought – one in five still unreached, with the Bible in their own language, so thank you very much for your time, Martin.

Martin Dickson (34:40)

Thanks for the opportunity to chat, I’m really grateful.